King Crimson

acum chiar ca sunt curios. dar tot nu cred ca le voi mai cumpara inca o data.
de o vreme am senzatia ca bugetul alocat muzicii e exagerat.

genesis-urile le-am luat in principal pentru materialele video.

lol
ia citeste ce scrie aici JulioSouth
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=191403
seamana cu ce se spune despre noile remasterizari KC?

despre genesis nu am impresia ca se spune de prea rau, cel putin aici (pe global)
http://www.progarchives.com/album-reviews.asp?id=20468

cred ca am sa fac odata acea experienta cvadrupla !

da... cica atunci cand s-au inregistrat albumele, pe vremea mixer-ului cu 8 canale, se proceda in felul urmator: se inregistrau toate instrumentele separat si, cum erau mult mai multe instrumente decat 8, fiecare necesitand in mod normal cate un canal, se suprapuneau prin "overdub" cate doua instrumente impreuna pe o singura banda, dupa care se mai facea asta o data si asa ajungeai sa ai patru instrumente pe o singura banda (deci ocupai un singur canal), pana ajungeai sa "inghesui" totul pe 8 canale. bineinteles ca fiecare overdub din asta insemna o pierdere de calitate, si unele instrumente au trecut prin overdub de mai multe ori... fiecare remasterizare de pana acum a fost facuta pe baza ultimei forme a materialului, redusa la 8 canale, pentru ca benzile originale (master tapes) au fost pierdute si regasite abia de curand. mixerul cu 8 canale a fost revolutionar la vremea lui (imaginati-va ca pana la aparitia lui se lucra pe doar patru canale), dar nici pe departe suficient pentru creativitatea lui fripp si a baietilor. acum, avand mixerele digitale care inseamna cate canale vrei tu, wilson si fripp s-au jucat pana cand au ajuns la ceea ce fripp zice ca e adevaratul sunet pe care si l-a dorit pentru albume.

ca sa fim bine intelesi, eu n-am ascultat noile discuri si si daca as face-o pentru mine n-ar fi nici o diferenta, avand in vedere sistemul la care ascult eu muzica. tot ce zic stiu pentru ca am citit, nu ca as fi eu mare expert.

in ce priveste remaster-urile Genesis, n-am citit inca o opinie definitiva, asa ca o sa culeg impresii, mai ales de pe PA:

"I can only hope that the remixes aren't like the remixes of their studio albums. I just can't see Genesis Live and Seconds Out with lots of gated reverb on the drums, the vocals ridiculously out front and the levels pumped so high everything is excessively compressed and clipped. I guess I'll just have to wait and see, but I'm not optimistic..."

de aici: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61013&KW=genesis

Impresii negative pe alt thread: "
I just recently bought the 70-75 Genesis box.Great stuuf,of course,but when i get to listen to the albums,i was shocked by a radical change in this new remastering.I have to say,i didn't like it at all at first listen.I'm getting used to it(SOME changes are actually very healthy),but if someone else bought this box,I'd like to lnow what you thought of the new mixes. "

"I think the compression is a bit much at times.
But it's enjoyable for me to have a CD format of those early albums that holds up with modern sounding quality. They sound really nice on headphones when I want to take a walk with my CD player.
That being said, I feel like maybe some of the "charm" has been eliminated... I'm not a recording engineer, so I don't know how to accurately specify it. Just a certain "something" seems lost. "

de aici: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55418&KW=genesis

Un thread intreg pe problema asta: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55418&KW=genesis

Exista si impresii pozitive, deci se poate zice ca "parerile sunt impartite".

Aldi a scris:

lol
ia citeste ce scrie aici JulioSouth
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=191403
seamana cu ce se spune despre noile remasterizari KC?

foarte buna distinctia de la inceput, dintre remasterizare si remixare. in ambele cazuri (Genesis si KC) e vorba de remixare, nu de remasterizare.

de asta e haioasa lumea audiofila. se poate discuta aproape la nesfarsit despre cum aude fiecare acelasi lucru.

altfel spus la KC remixarea (facuta in colaborare cu Fripp) e buna, la Genesis (facuta cu 2 membrii ai trupei) nu prea.

Aldi a scris:

de asta e haioasa lumea audiofila. se poate discuta aproape la nesfarsit despre cum aude fiecare acelasi lucru.

din ce-am citit e vorba de schimbari majore, nu de fineturi. la remixare s-au adus multe lucruri in fata care nu se auzeau pana acum (vorba cuiva, "pe portiunea X e un flaut si pana acum n-am stiut!") si multi nu prea accepta noutatile. se pare ca multe portiuni suna diferit, si nu din punct de vedere sonor ci din pdv muzical.

eu nu fac anti-reclama aici, ci zic ca cine e interesat n-ar strica sa citeasca putin inainte sa investeasca. pe de alta parte, m-as bucura ca cineva in care am incredere sa cumpere box-ul si sa-mi spuna cum i se pare; eu n-am nici un Genesis si box-ul asta ar fi ocazia ideala de a cumpara totul dintr-o lovitura.

In astfel de situatii cea mai buna e experienta personala. Poate tie nu iti place sa se auda acel flaut, acolo unde inainte nu era, dar the 12-string guitars ring clearer and louder merge. Aprecierile sunt destul de subiective.

Maine imi recuperez Genesis-urile vechi (le-am dus la tara) si poate in weekend-ul urmator fac o auditie comparativa. Discutia asta m-a facut foarte curios.

Nu am făcut nici eu comparaţii directe dar Genesisurile alea vechi, originalele (le-am avut şi pe vinil şi pe CD) se auzeau oribil, un zgomot de fond foarte proeminent şi cu înaltele complet şterse. Remasterizările digitale, alea primele, făcute de Virgin sînt OK (am cîteva) iar remasterizarea ultimă pe SACD n-am ascultat-o.

La KC, fiecare ediţie remasterizată de mr Fripp a însemnat cîte un pas înainte.

Dar materialele video KC cum sunt? Impecabile sau doar onorabile? Ce se gaseste pe YouTube nu arata prea bine.

Care materiale video ?

oficiale ?

Am:

Live In Frejus (VHS / DVD)

Live In Japan 1986 (VHS / DVD)

Deja Vroom (DVD)

Primele două le consider impecabile - adică sînt două concerte la care mă pot uita la nesfîrşit, nu s-au învechit sub nici o formă de vreo zece ani). Cred că sînt singurele materiale video de progresiv pe care le-am văzut şi care nu şi-au pierdut prospeţimea, din punctul meu de vedere.

Deja Vroom are cîteva chestii care mă deranjează (subiective) cum ar fi Belew cu freza lui uşor libidinoasă sau efectul vizual de înceţoşare aplicat peste imagine (aici ar fi şi singura treabă reproşabilă pentru Live In Japan, s-au jucat la un moment dat cu nişte efecte kitchoase gen pixelizare cu sacadarea imaginii, dar s-au oprit la timp).

Că tot eram offtopic, am revăzut un concert Genesis de prin 73 şi pot spune că stomacul meu nu mai înghite imaginea lui Peter Gabriel din acei ani, cu tot respectul pentru albumele Genesis şi pentru cariera lui solo. După ce s-a tuns, s-a îmbrăcat civilizat şi a renunţat la teatralismele alea total deplasate (tot părere personală) a început să arate şi el a om normal (POV e un concert excelent). Am îmbătrînit ?

Niet. Cele bonus de pe DVD-urile editiilor ultime. Asa am vazut pe coperta pe care ai pus-o, ca exista. Pe DVD-urile Genesis sunt pe toate astfel de bonusuri (filmulete foarte vechi, din perioada in care au aparut albumele).

Nu m-am uitat la ele (încă). Pot să spun că am văzut doar secvenţele din filmuleţul Careful With That Axe (Crafty Guitarists) din 73 şi arătau bine.

O să elucidez problema.

Iar eu trebuie sa-i dau dreptate lui bibi care zicea ca editiile recent scoase la unele albume KC (In The Court, Red-pe care le avem amandoi si Lizard -pe care-l am eu) in format PCM 24/48 sunt peste editiile jubiliare 30-th. Asta ca CD-uri , nu stiu ca HDCD. Auditia s-a facut nu cu player dedicat , ci direct din calculator cu o placa de sunet capabila de 24/96 de la Terratec. Si suna CRISTALIN. Totusi 30-th ,repet ,suna exceptional. Asta pot sa zic eu pe amplificatorul meu Yamaha AX-598 + incinte ProAc 2.5 clone ,care este capabil de auditii peste nivelul CD . Nu am spus ca eu am scule de top, dar ...totusi. DACA as avea un player de DVD-Audio as comanda tot ce este in format DVD-Audio. Nu ai ce sa pretinzi mai mult de la inregistrari de 40-35 de ani...Cred ca prin aceste ultime editii s-a ajuns la maximum ce se poate scoate din inregistrarile originale.

bibi a scris:

Care materiale video ?

oficiale ?

Am:

Live In Frejus (VHS / DVD)

Live In Japan 1986 (VHS / DVD)

Deja Vroom (DVD)

Primele două le consider impecabile - adică sînt două concerte la care mă pot uita la nesfîrşit, nu s-au învechit sub nici o formă de vreo zece ani). Cred că sînt singurele materiale video de progresiv pe care le-am văzut şi care nu şi-au pierdut prospeţimea, din punctul meu de vedere.

Deja Vroom are cîteva chestii care mă deranjează (subiective) cum ar fi Belew cu freza lui uşor libidinoasă sau efectul vizual de înceţoşare aplicat peste imagine (aici ar fi şi singura treabă reproşabilă pentru Live In Japan, s-au jucat la un moment dat cu nişte efecte kitchoase gen pixelizare cu sacadarea imaginii, dar s-au oprit la timp).

doua din ele le-am vazut si eu. in ce priveste Live In Frejus piesa Indiscipline mi se pare varful concertului... incredibila energia si ferocitatea (scuzati-ma pentru cuvantul nepotrivit in contextul muzici) cu care toti isi tortureaza instrumentele de lucru (chiar si Fripp care era retinut la toate piesele).
Deja Vroom (cred ca este cel in formula doble trio din 1995) imi place iarasi foarte mult. piese precum THRAK, Larks' si inca nu stiu ce improvizatii suna incredibil de greu... dupa ce am vazut prima data acel concert (acum 2 ani) mi-am chimbat parerea despre ce inseamna muzica grea.
imi place de asemenea si alternanta piese grele, complexe cu piese in stilul lui Belew.
al 3-lea este tot un Live in Japan,insa din 2003 cu Fripp precum vinul bun. ceilalti trebuie sa tina pasul cu el.

Wow, n-am vazut in viata mea mai mult de 6-7 minute consecutive cu KC live, niste filmari amarate care se gasesc pe Youtube din perioada Larks Tongues. Hmm, mi-ati deschis apetitul...

@Aldi: nu mi-am dat seama ca tu ai deja box-set-ul Genesis de albume de studio 70-75. Pai daca tie iti plac, atunci e din punctul meu de vedere au trecut un test important

Pai, inca nu a trecut testul.
Am boxset-ul din primavara (aprilie sau mai, nu mai stiu) dar nu am ascultat decat "Trespass" si cred ca "Foxtrot" dar de cate o singura data fiecare si la modul superficial, atent la alte lucruri. Nu credeam ca sunt diferite de cele din editia anterioara. L-am cumparat in special pentru materialele video bonus (acele filmulete vechi care pot fi gasite pe YouTube + concerte din perioada respectiva) si pentru "The Lamb", singurul album pe care nu-l aveam.
Cand spuneam ca este peste ce au scos cei de la KC ma gandeam la ce a spus bibi despre formate (CD/DVDA) si coperti (digipac cu carton de proasta calitate din care discurile se scot greu). Cele ale Genesisului au in plus si formatul SACD iar prezentarea este de lux. Pe toate DVD-urile se gasesc si interviuri in care ei prezinta perioada respectiva. Plus CD-ul bonus.

Discutia de ieri, despre diferente, m-a facut foarte curios sa le ascult atent si comparativ. Daca vor suna diferit, dar fiecare cu atuurile sale , atunci voi pastra si CD-urile vechi (ma gandisem sa le fac cadou cuiva).

21st Century Schizoid Man-King Crimson (Hyde Park, 1969)

Here is the audio from 21st century schizoid man at the legendary hyde park concert put with the remaining video that is available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONJndTdXrg0&feature=related

sunt putine imagini insa merita vizionate.

Interesant. Fripp zice pe blog (se pare ca e un fapt deja cunoscut) ca la inregistrarea lui Red el s-a abtinut de la orice comentariu despre cum ar trebui sa sune albumul si ce ar trebui sa faca ceilalti.


http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=16384

A review has this…

Fripp found himself standing at an artistic and spiritual crossroads, and he unceremoniously announced to Wetton and Bruford that he would be withholding his opinion during the sessions for Red, a curious position for, perhaps, the band's guiding force to take.

Actually, this was a strategy of radical neutrality. And perhaps a curious position worthy of adoption more frequently in creative activities than seems evident to these eyes (albeit spectacularly challenged); for example, in the field of reviewing. The comment above demonstrates, firstly, the difficulty in implementing the strategy; secondly, the difficulty in recognizing the strategy in action; thirdly, given the current conventional wisdom regarding Red as a defining & influential album, the power of that strategy.

Moving associationally along, Red was more influential on players in the US than in England. Why? Perhaps the punk ethos in the UK might partly explain this.

Aici e recenzia la care raspunde Fripp: http://www.blurt-online.com/features/view/523/ E excelenta.

Sesiune de intrebari si raspunsuri:

Suspicious....
:: Posted by desol81 on February 10, 2010
Is it me, or is this Jakko Collins Fripp album morphing into a new formation of Crim with the contributions from Tony and Gavin?

More like a ProjeKct of some kind. A ProjeKct is open; King Crimson is closer to the inside of a box, given the expectations, associations & assumptions that go with it.


sau


Instruments
:: Posted by carlomox on February 05, 2010
I’d like to know, if possible, the instruments you are using recently in CDs such as Equatorial Stars and Thread. Kind of guitars and effects to get your marvellous sound. …

The sound/s seem to travel with me, regardless of guitar & equipment.




http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=16834

Cum lucra Fripp la inregistrarea lui Islands:

Joy: the guitar solo on Sailor’s Tale had my back going in ways that haven’t registered much on this scale for a very long time. Out there, on the edge. dangerous. A phenomenal intensity.

The solo was recorded, beginning around three in the morning.

The sessions would usually end around four, I would arrive back at the digs near Ladbroke Grove between 4-6 am, write the charts to Prelude for 2 hours, get maybe 2 hours sleep, and then return to Command Studios for noon. This for a week. The final night began at 18.00 and ended the following afternoon c. 14.30 when a van with Crims inside collected me, sleepless & mighty wacked, and drove North for the first night of a KC tour.

How on earth?

http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=15504

A morning through-listen to ITWOP – the album.

Pictures Of A City, Cadence & Cascade, Peace A Theme, Cat Food & Groon are superb, and have never sounded better at any time I have listened to them, including in the studio when they were recorded. Taken together, these are half of the wonderful second KC album that didn’t. ITWOP – the song is now listenable, even enjoyable, but not classic.

The Devil’s Triangle: a suite in 3 parts. The first part is now listenable, and not bad. The second is barely listenable, but I would rather not. The third is listenable & begins well, but I am then grateful when it goes away. I would happily delete this from the album. But, while this is acceptable on a compilation, it’s not acceptable when re-presenting the album.

http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=16996


ITWOP – the stereo Wilson-Fripp remixed album. Significant moves forward from last week. Now, it is listenable throughout with stunning musicianship from Michael Giles, Mel Collins & Keith Tippet. Even The Devil’s Triangle works. We have inserted PQ points for each of the three parts of the DT suite, to aid those who might like to move it along to the third part; where popular music forms drop into the black hole & disappear with 1969, which never quite got into 1970, along with a pile of sea-going vessels.

Fine-tuning continues & incremental advances have significant effect, even to a surprising degree.

11.51 Simon: This is the first time I’ve listened through to this album right. Simon has listened through to this album on several occasions for some years. This value-judgment is also true for me, and I’ve been listening to it for a lot longer.

13.02 We have also mastered some added-value tracks, not all of which add personal value. But then, I am not much interested in the gory history of alternative versions. Neverthless, if I were, I would be thrilled by an early trio Devil’s Triangle prior to multi mellotron-overdubs. In some ways it is stronger than the final mix I…

http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=17020



Today’s work: ITWOP - the album in 5.1. The problem we have faced with The Devil’s Triangle is our inability to find the original multi-tracks, leaving us with the original stereo mix. Simon’s masterly touch, along with Penteo has polished the job. DT I, II & III are now tickled. If allowed a radical option, I would delete DT II & move from I straight to III. But probably that would be too much for most of those who continue to fondle vinyl sleeves in private rooms. An earlier attempt by Simon & Robert is recounted in the Diary for Tuesday, 7th September 1999.

Onto the 5.1 of Beat. Neal & Jack & Me – Absent Lovers. This belongs to utterly different time & space than Poseidon & Islands.

Much werning & twerning continues as Beat moves through Heartbeat, Turkish D (original name), Waiting Man & now Neurotica.

Onto added-value tracks for the Islands DVD & CD. Taken together, these are somewhere between added-value, historic-interest, and cruel-and-unnatural punishment.

New arisings of the industrial kind: Pink Floyd has won their court action against EMI. EMI’s strategy, of defending the indefensible, is further evidence of witlessness in their corridors of power. Readers of this Diary may recall the account of David & myself being visited at DGM HQ by an EMI person, and being told by him (2003) that downloads aren’t important but we have to have them! It’s company policy! A company that has to have what isn’t important is either exceptionally stupid or lying to you; in either case, not a company to engage with in very much at all.

That was the end of our licensing deal with EMI, but not the end of our pain in dealing with them. Despite no download rights ever being granted, nevertheless EMI put up KC tracks for download – after the license had expired! And two audits showing huge sums of non-accounted & unpaid royalties took, in turn, two major efforts to extract cheques for sums payable to the Crims.

Dear innocents looking in from outside the industry: what would you do if you had no idea whether your contracted wages were going to be paid, or not, or when, and what proportion of the promised sum might eventually reach your hands? Today, please forgive me my lack of charitable impulse while running upstairs to where David was working, shouting – Good news! Good news! Pink Floyd has won!

http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=17005